The Mailbag: Team Name, Bike Computers, Shoes, MTB Clips vs. Flats Artwork

The thisABILITY Adventures Podcast

Join ThisABILITY Adventure Racing's podcast for tactical advice on adventure racing from a mid-pack team's perspective. Adventure racing is an endurance sport that combines biking, trekking, and paddling while navigating with map and compass. Our podcast primarily features Race Rambles, where we recount our team's experiences during specific races. We'll also share insights from our own races, ranging from short sprints to expedition-length events. Occasional interviews with guests, including the sport's most well-known figures and those new to adventure racing, will provide additional perspectives. As advocates for people with developmental disabilities, we believe in focusing on abilities, not limitations, a philosophy that applies to everyone. So join us to focus on your abilities, push your limits, and learn together.

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The thisABILITY Adventures Podcast

The Mailbag: Team Name, Bike Computers, Shoes, MTB Clips vs. Flats

May 02, 2023 • Team thisABILITY • Season 2 • Episode 2

In this second episode of The Mailbag, Team thisABILITY Racing members, Andrea Anderson and Chip Dodd answers questions from avid racers. From why they chose their team name, bike computers, shoes, and MTB clips vs. flats, they got it covered.

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Welcome to the thisABILITY Adventures podcast. I'm Andrea Anderson.

And I'm Chip Dodd from team thisABILITY. All right. We are excited to be doing another Mailbag podcast. We had a bunch of questions come in, almost enough questions. We're going to cut this into two different Mailbags, two Mailbag podcast.

But what we thought we should answer first is from a cashier at REI yesterday noticed Chip's shirt and of course it says thisABILITY adventures on it and we get the question fairly frequently about our team name. So we have a team thisABILITY and we have that name primarily to spread. Awareness that. With people with disabilities, the best approach is to focus on what they can do and not their limitations, so it's not necessarily that we have people on our team with disabilities, although I would say that probably all of us have some, but it depends on how broadly. You define the word disability. But in our personal and professional lives, we support people with developmental disabilities, so that means they have a disability that had an onset before adulthood. And I have a son with Down syndrome. So that's the type of person we support. And we focus on what they can do. And it's always amazing to see. What success looks like for them, and how rewarding it can be no matter what level of achievement you're working towards.

Yep, which is also one of the reasons why we're doing the podcast. We wanted to be educational, to help people and inspire people, even if they're approaching 50, that you can still go out and do cool things and adventure in the wild and even do these international expedition races.

And so during COVID though, we didn't. Have as much to do with, not as much. And so we started disability adventures. So we have a company called Disability Adventures and our team name. Is this ability? Racing so they are somewhat separate, but. Chip, why don't you tell them what our thisABILITY Adventures does?

Yeah, sure. When COVID hit like every race director across the entire United States lost their permits. You couldn't do any get-togethers or activities. And of course, Andrew and I wanted to. Still do stuff which we do a lot of our own, you know, adventures. And we create our own little adventure races and do paddle drops and bike drops and hide our stuff in the woods and races, but we wanted to bring that same sense of adventure to other adventure racers and help them continue. We started doing virtual races without. We just started building races in different parks.

We've got permission as some of them when needed. It's not like we buffed. The system or anything, anything wrong?

But generally you can't go hang a flag out and you can't hang a flag in a State Park without a permit. So we didn't hang flags. We used stick teepees.

We used rock, we used intersections, trail signs, things like that so that the course exist using only natural things that exist in the environment.

We never got in trouble. We can say that.

Yeah, but it's a legit company.

So we have insurance, for instance.

Of course. So anyways, we did a bunch of the virtual races to get people through COVID now that. Racing is booming right now. It's like there's a race every other. Week and it. Seems like we're not. We're not doing virtual races right now, but we do have a couple in queue that we want to launch. But the other thing that really became more of a of a need was the event tracing clinics and now. We paired up with Mark Montague from Soggy bottom boys and we've done now I think four or five different intro to adventure racing clinics. I have really wanting to do a expedition clinic for people that are doing their first expedition race or their first international expedition, not so much the podium, but just to get through it. And then that of course led into individual and team coaching just to some teams they just they want that unique experience to say can you help us get through this next race because we have a lot of experience with Ecuador and Paraguay in Africa and all of this. So people are interested in specific recommendations for their team to go to these bigger races.

So our limitation is time we would rather eat, drink, sleep, adventure, racing but race.

And race. Yeah, and right.

We have a hard time fitting it all in. But hopefully that. At least answers the question of what is thisABILITY Adventures and also what does our team name mean?

So we probably should have done this in our First Mailbag podcast. We got to put a. Caveat in here. We like think, we do a lot of racing and we've learned a lot from our mistakes. We've learned a lot from the AR discussion group. We want this podcast to be educational, but that does not mean that we're experts. We don't know. Everything about everything, but we do know what works. For us, right?

Well, Chip is usually right. Is the thing that. Irritates me a lot in our relationship, so take that for what it's worth, we hope that it's good advice on, but we're also changing up what we think is best practice all the time. Almost every race we're trying something to be better or different or, you know, just to see if something works out in our favor.

So any question that anybody asks us and we answer on this podcast like every other team might have a different answer and that's OK. There is, there's no like one right way in advance tracing. There's what works for you and your team. Based on your experience.

Well, and based on your goals too, our goals are rarely to podium. So some of our advice is going to be more geared towards maybe comfort or more geared towards lasting.

And enjoying it. Like really, we want to get to the end of our race and we're smiling, we're happy and we're pumped. We can't wait to sign up for the next one. Our bodies are not destroyed. We're not limping. Around we're not injured and we're not fighting.

Well, sometimes that's especially on camera.

We try not to. Yeah, right. So either way, this is, this is definitely good. I believe it's good information for for mid pack teams, especially podium teams might learn stuff, but they're podium teams are usually going a lot lighter, a lot faster. They're they're not gonna carry as much stuff as we do and and they just just generally more efficient. So we're that we're that front mid pack back front pack wherever you want to call it. Now if you you put me in a 12. Hour race, I'm. Going for the. But you put me in a three or four day race. I'm trying to just I. Want my team? To have an amazing experience, get to that finish line. And and push ourselves. And do the best we can, but be a little bit more comfortable.

So in other words, take. Our advice for what it is, it's. Advice from us?

And if if you think anything is wrong or whatever, please contact us. Leave ideas in the comments. We can learn from you just as much as you can learn from us, cause a lot of you may have a lot more experience. We do and we are always willing to learn so. Thanks for listening.

OK, so our first official.

Question came from Jonathan who just got done doing the epic, his first adventure race. He had listened to. A couple of our race rambles and he reached out to me to. Ask about the bike computer. So here's his question. You've mentioned bike computers and a couple of your rambles, and currently I'm not using one. I know there are restrictions on what's allowed or not, but I wanted to know if you had a recommendation on one that will get the job done. And be acceptable for races in general. OK, so since this is an educational podcast. We're going to. Dive a little bit deep on these bike computer things because this is quite a complicated topic, or at least I can take a very simple topic and make it complicated.

That's for sure.

So let's start out. You aren't allowed to use a GPS enabled device, so for example Garmin has a very nice bike computer. It's got all the trails on it, it maps, it tells you all kinds of stuff, so you can't use anything that talks to GPS.

And that's pretty much really important. It's almost as important as a map report, for instance. I think we've used it a ton in our races and often we have multiple teammates who have one just in case someone forgets to restart it or, you know, someone doesn't keep track of it. Anyway, it's always nice to have a backup. For that too.

So outside of the compass, I believe this is. Probably your most important NAV tool in biking. So once you get your bike computer, you definitely want to practice it in all types of different situations. This is not something you wait to use just in races like you really need to get used to resetting it. Understanding how to use the different features on it and and especially how to pull the battery out and reset it. Because you know you don't want to go into a race not knowing if your battery is going to make it, so you need to know how to reset it from the factory default cause at least. The ones I've used don't maintain their settings.

So, yeah, along those lines. How do you reset yours?

OK. I mean, I use the, we're going to get into that in a minute, but the micro wireless cat eye it uses, I think it's called the 2032 battery. It's like a watch battery and it basically once you replace the battery it's back to factory. You got to go through. You got to. Set the time like if you want a 12 hour 24 hour clock you have to set the some by computers are going to let you set it based on your tire size. For example 29 inch. 27 five etcetera, but the better ones are the ones that you actually set the number of millimeters and the diameter your tire so that it's perfect versus a generalization.

So I think that's the biggest difference between the ones that I've used in the past and the ones that we're using now. So I just thought that should be. Up, even though we might mention it later, but. The one that is the basic cat eye wireless. It doesn't have the ability to punch in the exact centimeters of your or millimeters of your tire size. It just says 29 inch or 29.5. It just has a few general settings, but the more specific you can get. The more accurate the the device is going.

To be like for example, my 27 five bike, that's a hard tail has 2.8 tires, so they're bulbous tires. When you look at the outside diameter, it's in. It's a 20 niner. So if I dial it in 27 five on that bike, the bike computer is going to be off. So the idea is on a on a good bike computer you put in the millimeters, you actually go to. I went to a fabric store. I got a flexible. Measuring tape that's. Got inches on one side, millimeters on the other. I use like painters. Tape and I taped the thing and I. Put it all the way around my tire after I've got it fully inflated. Whatever your inflation, you're gonna run for the race. I typically run a little tighter. Tires like at 35. Psi and then I'm and that way you've got the exact measurement for your bike computer, so that you're you're super accurate when you're measuring.

So we got into the details. Really fast, but if you already have one that doesn't get to that specification, that's another reason why it's nice to have multiple people on the team.

Have a by computer if you have slightly different tire sizes or whatever, you know the average of your devices will probably help. And it's a lot better than nothing. So, but even the one you're talking about is relatively inexpensive, and it does not have the GPS feature.

So you know, that's pretty manageable.

Before a race go out on a bike ride, make sure the bikes are working and to compare odometer settings. Make sure we're as close as we can get to accurate.

Yeah. OK, so instead of. The details. Let's go back out to to broad so. A couple of things. When you're looking at the computer there, there's a there's 2IN in navigation, especially on the bike, there's two rolls. There's like the overall logistics. Roll. And then there's the person hunting the CP's. So for example, if you're in like a 10 hour bike lag, sometimes you need to give up some CP's to get to the next TA. Say for example, if there's a cut off for a paddle. Section that you got to start by two. PM So that you're. Off before dark. So somebody is basically watching the overall distance that you've traveled, because that leg might be a 60 mile leg and you need to know that we have gone 45 miles into the 60 mile leg. You also want to be the logistics person can also be tracking the average pace. In that terrain, so if you're on dirt roads or it's raining, muddy, or it's uphill or whatever, you even though you think you can ride your bike at 18 miles an hour on single track or 18 kilometers an hour on single track during the race when you're in Africa and it's muddy and we're walking our bike up hills, our average pace might have been 11.5. So then the logistics is looking at that to see are we going to make it to the TV or do we have to start cutting stuff? Or do you have to pick up the pace?

Which is again in the details between bike computers themselves, like the cheapest cat eye, the vello. This is the one I've used in the past. I think a lot of people use it. It doesn't have the ability to have the overall mileage, it just does one. And you reset it and then you're having to do math in your head as far as how much. Of that leg, you've. Already gotten done instead of how far you've come from the intersection. But the one that you? Of is slightly more sophisticated. I mean, it's still not very fancy, but it will give you that overall distance.

Yep. So the one I use is called cation micro Wireless on Amazon. It's $34. It it has two. Different measurement settings. It allows you to do the overall measurement, which is how you get your average pace, and then it has a secondary measurement that I use for hunting CP's. So for example, I've made it, I've turned it in intersection. I just want to see I got to go down 400 meters. There's going to reentrant on the right. We're going to cut in and and do a compass bearing. That's that's the one that I reset all the time on every single intersection and every single major. If I do a stream crossing, I reset it. I just always want to know exactly where I am when I'm on the bike leg. It also helps me stay awake on on big long races so that that cat I micro wireless does have the ability to have those two different measurement modes. Yeah, usually.

When we travel to, we take out the batteries and both the ones we've mentioned take battery. Is they're really easy to find and they're light and small. You have to remember to put them back in like we put them in. We take them out when we travel on the plane and need to remember to put them back in, but both the sensor and the device itself has a battery in it so.

Right. So that's another thing we should get into just for anybody that doesn't have a big computer. Basically, when you buy one that's non GPS, normally there's a little magnet that's going to attach to one of. Your spokes and then there's going to be a little sensor that. Connects to your fork. Now you want to put the sensor and the magnet pretty close to the hub, meaning the center of the tire. Couple reasons for that. There's a lot less centrifugal force. So the magnet is not likely to kind of slide down. The other thing is it's further away from the ground. So things like rocks and mud or are less likely to kick off the little magnet because it is in your spokes. And then also your spokes are closer to the fork. The closer you get to the hub and they get further away from. The fork the forth. Closer to the tire.So be sure your magnet and that sensor there. Make sure the the sensor is facing 4. Forward if you face the sensor backwards and anything bumps it, it'll get caught up in your spokes and could rip it off. So what you want to happen is. If the sensor moves. Towards your spokes and starts hitting the spokes. You want it kind of like the playing cards when you were a kid where the spokes can just bump it, but it can't knock it off. They're normally held on to your fork using. Zip ties that come with the sensor. They work pretty good, but it is nice to. Have some backups because. They do break.

That's also another reason to have more than one person on your team having a bike computer in case something knocks off or stops working. But I have to. Say like one of the funnest times, I think. I think that you having the kind that do your overall mileage was in the CC in 2020. I think it was and you go prod when it turned over to 300 miles. So that was pretty cool that. Well, I think we went 320 miles on a bike that but at that time you were riding with one. Odometer in miles and one in kilometers. Yeah, you don't do that anymore, though .

No, I don't do it anymore. Cause I I just haven't had that many situations. I I the the the only scenario I can think of would be you're in the United States, they give you a supplementary map. That is in miles because it came from. A State Park or something like. That, but normally I didn't need it, so I just I just, it was just additional.

Yeah, it's kind of like totally extra like luxury to have have an extra 1 in miles than in kilometers because all the maps are usually in kilometers.

But another thing about the bike computers. If you leave them on. And the race is transporting your bike assembled for you, and they're putting it into a U-Haul. You might want to take that by computer off and put it somewhere safer. We usually take ours off and put it in our feed bag for transport because it's really it can be easy to get those knocked off and then you'll never find it. Yeah, they're easy to lose in that scenario.

And the feedback is one of those ones. They basically they connect to the top bar of your bike and the goose neck. So they're right there in front of you. The the It's also a great place to put your bike tool, your bike light and your red blinky light and your basically anything that can get knocked off your bike. You put it in your feed bag and that way that that's the best place to transport it, even when you're doing it on the airplane, because TSA might pull your bike out of your bike box and really mess with some stuff. So you want any of that stuff that can get knocked off in your feed bag. Until you actually get to the race, one other thing for flying, don't forget there's a there's a bike computer that has a battery and then the sensor also has one of the 2032 batteries. So you want to if you want to play by the rules, then all. All of the batteries out of your bike. And should fly with. You on the airplane and your carry on, and then you reassemble it once you get. Your bike out. Of the you know, when you get your bike back. At the. End of the flight. I guess the last thing I mean. A couple of. Things if you're a navigator and you have a mat board on your bike, you know the the bars are usually tapered on a mountain bike. So a lot of times all your sensors and stuff or your bike lights always have to go like up underneath the mat board. If you can try to make sure that your bike computer is all the way over like next to your shifters, so that one is you can see it while you're riding and it you don't have to like duck underneath your mat board to look at it. But also you want to be able to reset it frequently, so I want it like right there where I can get my thumb to it and. Hold it down. To reset the. The distance on there, so hopefully if you haven't cut your bars. Not too much. You'll you'll have a little bit. Of space where it's not a. Tapered near your shifters where you can put your bike computer and the micro wireless is actually a very small computer so it it fits pretty tight on your on your thing. It's kind of funny, like your computer. The Velo is like a bigger computer, but it's it has less. Features so but the other thing if. If you're going. To do a big race where there's a lot of, you know you, you've spent money to fly and hotels and. All of that you're going to do like a three day race. Go ahead and just replace the batteries. In your bike computers, they're pretty cheap. I mean, yeah, you can pull them out and test them with a battery tester and all that, but it's. Kind of just. Not worth it. Like you use, you know reuse those. Old batteries, dirt. Day-to-day, as you're practicing, but just replace your batteries in both the sensor and the bike computer for any big big committed race. So I think that's that. Anything else on bike computers?

I don't think so.

All right. Off to the next question. OK. So Jonathan actually sent me two questions and this is another one that is very detailed. We're going to get. Into parameters because there is not A1 solution, but we've we've learned a lot from our mistakes on this one. So here it goes. Here's this question. I'm also looking for recommendations. And shoes. The shoes I've used for trail and OCR racing collapsed on me at the end of the first trek. He was using Ultra Lone Peaks, probably one of the the the later but not the most recent models. I know they've done some. Luckily, I threw a second shoe and I guess it was innovates in the paddle bag and I have wide feet and those tend to pinch on longer activities. Are there certain brands that you have seen that hold up better for AR's?

Yeah, you're going to get so many different answers depending on who you ask about this, I think, but the parameters seem to hold pretty true in that you need space for your whole foot, and the goal is to not have any blister. Years or any, you know, pains, aches and pains before, during or after. So there's no right answer and that just I think the most important thing for me has been having a wide toe box. So if the toe box of your shoes I didn't even know some of these terms. Before I started adventure racing, but a tow box, you know, is just exactly that where your toes are and if. They don't have. Enough space. They're going to rub. They're going to cause blisters. So we've gone through several different iterations of what we thought was best and and. I started with Merrills that were true minimalist shoes. They had a pretty wide toe box, but no cushion at all. Then went on to Hokas which have a lot of cushion, a little bit more tow box and some shoes, but just weren't right for me and felt kind of like. Platform issues now. Again, these all of these shoes have changed over the years and the shoes I'm wearing now are the Topo athletic brand shoes. I've tried to couple of different of their styles, but the wide toe box I think is what. Is the most important thing that that shoe has. But Chip, why don't you tell them how you decide if a shoe has wide enough toe. Box for your foot.

Well, get into that. Let me go. Let me do my origin story on messing up my feet. And and I guess let me. Let me start over with the. The overall, like our society, our typical society, not adventure racers, but just your average Joe. Like, for whatever reason, we think that humans feet should to be attractive. They need to be skinny and long and pointy. So, like, look at men. Leather shoes like people that wear suits and ties. To go to. Work and they or like like like a finance guy or a. Banker or something like their shoes. Look like they're long and pointy, like the feet are not. Shaped like that. And then especially females like wearing high heels and you see women just jamming their feet into these shoes and their toes are all jacked up and they're uncomfortable. That's what our society thinks of that. The feet should be pointing. But when you when. You walk around barefoot and you look down at your foot. It looks more like a duck. Like your, your heel is thin and you point especially mine.

And I'm barefoot every day. Look like 51 stone. But you're the fun of your foot. Looks like a duck. It's wide and your toes are not pointy. They're more rounded, and so it's really important in adventure racing, especially when you get into longer races, fit your your shoes, need to fit the shape of your specific foot and everybody is different. I mean some people's middle toes. Sticks out further than their big. Toe so the shoe has to be. A different shape than somebody who's. Big Toe is the one that sticks out. The furthest cause the. End of the day, any of. Your toes that are touching the. Front of your shoe, you're going to lose those toenails after a really long race.

Off with that? I also I wore. When you go get your shoes, when you when you put on your shoes at the shoe. Store and you figure out what fits. I used to be a size 12. I mean I'm a little over 6 foot tall and size 12 is pretty normal for a male and all the way up until I was like 45 years old. I was wearing size 12 and then. But I I was also wearing merrills. And I I think I kept having toe problems and stuff like that and and toenails are falling off and everything. So I eventually. I think it was actually Eventration discussion group. I somebody said, you know, buy a size up and then buy thicker wool socks and then that will allow your feet to swell during these longer races, you'll get less blisters, less toenail problems. And actually. Roselli's told me about ultras. This is team irate booty. He loved racing with. And she showed me ultras and I.

Was like holy crap, this is perfect. Like my this is. Magical and and so I I too wore ultra. Long peaks for lone peaks. For a really long period of time. And my gosh, my feet just felt so good and I didn't have any toe problems and all the problems I was having with. The Merrells went away. And then The funny thing is, all of a sudden my foot became size 13. Like I literally I still have the marrows in my van because I was like, if I ever forget my shoes cause I walk around barefoot all the time, I can just go back and throw on my merrells. To go into a store or something, I literally feel like I'm putting on one of your shoes. I can't fit my foot in the materials that I wore just a few years ago because my foot. Has now adapted. It's it's allowed itself to spread out naturally the way the way you. Are when you're. Barefoot, the Ultras allowed me to do.

That happened. Same for me. I can't wear those shoes anymore. In fact, one year we bought hiking boots actually for Christmas presents. For each other.

We don't usually do presents and.

Like we need hiking boots, we'll just. Buy each other. 'S hiking boots anyway. It I can't wear those.

I had to give mine away.

You still have them.

No, I gave him away. Gave him to my dad.

But she's like size 9 or.

10 So you don't still have. Donated mine.

I don't have them.

As well because they didn't get all that. Much use and right?

OK, so basically buy bigger, I guess it use wool socks. Don't get the little thin, tiny thin socks do wool socks. And and and. Definitely allow your feet. You what you don't want is your foot being compressed in in your shoe.

But So what you do is you actually take out the insert of the shoe itself and then put your foot on top of the insert. And if your foot is spilling over. The edges of the. To insert, chances are your foot is going to be too tight inside your shoe, especially after a certain amount of time wearing them and your feet swelling. You know, my feet don't swell much, but they definitely do. Towards the end of a long. But another feature that is somewhat controversial, controversial that I mentioned with the Merrill's is, you know, do you have cushion or no cushion? And so it seems like most shoes are going towards cushion, you know, with hookah being the. One to start, start that off with really. High platform cushions. I think the topo, it has a pretty high cushion too, but it has quite a lot of ankle stability, which is nice. So your shoes now they also have. A cushion, don't they?

Yeah, this is 1. Like, it's like day-to-day training. I actually really liked having the murals where they're more like barefoot. But for just a an hour trail run something super short, you can kind of handle that wonkiness because you you don't have the cushion, you have to pay more attention to routes and stuff when you step on something, you feel it. But for the bigger races. Even even the the Lone peaks, I noticed that after after you wear them, the cushion kind of wears out a little bit. You start really feeling some stuff like those shoes are kind of minimalist and so you feel more rocks and. Things like that. I guess I can. We are going to tell them my secret today. Right now.

Probably you need to hold off though.

Now, now. 'S a good.

That's like, that's like a surprise that shoes that ship currently wears.

Oh, the big secret. OK, so.

My current shoes.

We need to save.

We need to save for the end.

Because what we're talking. About cushion, it kind of reminded me. Like if you have enough cushion. Do you really need a? Rock plate. So some shoes have a rock plate to protect your. Foot from that sensation of stepping on something. Europe or whatever. I have the topo shoes. One of them I have has a rock plate and the other. And and I can't tell much difference.

I think they have the same amount of cushion, but it should be stiffer if it has a rock plate and sometimes that can be helpful. So rock plate, yours.

Yeah, the less and less cushion you have like the the ultra long long peaks, they they I think they have a rock plate, but if you don't you can get those learn from another racer recently you. Can actually get a. A cutting board. They make them very, very thin cutting boards and you actually cut it. The size of your insert. You can actually glue that in the bottom of. Your shoe and create your own. Rock plate and that.

It's pretty brilliant. I don't know.

That I'll be doing. That but.

You covered something. I want to just. Touch on a little bit more. I would recommend everybody first, whatever shoe you're wearing, both on your bike and your regular shoe. Go ahead and and take those out and you can see the toe imprints on the insert. Of where your toes are. Relative to the sides of your shoe. And I think a lot of people, especially your bike shoes, bike shoes, tend to be way point. It's almost like. They want them to be aerodynamic. And so you're going to. Notice that your pinky and your ring finger toe are probably smashed up against the edge of the the insert, which means into the. The bike shoe. Which, especially on biking, it makes your toes. Super cold because they're compressed. So so I always try to find like the biggest, widest bike shoe that I can find. That also has a a tread that you can walk on if you need to. Hike a bike or.

Yeah, but so your the positioning of. Your foot can. Help certain motions. So that's why you know the bike shoes are. It's like rock climbing shoes. Rock climbing shoes are going to pinch your feet in there because it's giving you what you need to, you know, dig your toe into a little crevice. Like, same with biking shoes. Like there must be a mechanical reason when you're pointing your foot down.

But we're talking about adventure racing. We're talking about long distances, long amounts of time.

Yeah, comforts a little bit more important sometimes than.

And temperature cause again.

And temperature exactly.

You want your toes and if you can't find shoes that that give you no compression on your toes and buy the next size up. So I'm using Pearl zoomi. I can't remember the actual type I could put in the notes. If anybody has a question, but they are. They're more a little bit more flexible, they've got a thread I can walk around in them like regular shoes. Bushwack with them. But I got them in size thirteens again, I'm I let my foot expand but I don't get super cold. When I ride. Because my toes are not compressed in those.

But well, also we have another question coming up about clipped in pedals or not.

Yeah, we'll get into that.

So we'll probably talk more about bike shoes then, but as far as you know, what type of shoe you want to be getting, we haven't mentioned the drop yet.

So how much? Your foot drops from your toes to your heel is basically what we're talking about. So if you have a zero drop shoe, it means there's no heel whatsoever. And then you know, it can go all the way up. I think the tapo shoes I'm using right now are either a three or five millimeter drop, which is considered pretty low. I think Ultra is was 0 drop correct and yeah, so.

I think most alters are zero, yeah.

Think about zero drop. Do you prefer that or?

Yeah, I do prefer zero. Although the shoes I'm wearing now have a little bit of a of a drop, but I I think what? What what's really? Happening is the the more natural you are, the better it is for these longer distant races, maybe just general health in general. So our bodies are designed to be barefoot, and so the minute you put a shoe. On you're kind of putting a cast. On your, on your foot. So the idea is that humans aren't naturally used to having a heel, it's it's deemed attractive the higher the. Heel the better. But in in in I believe in racing in anything long distance. I think the closer you are to natural the better, which is why the zero and the very. Low drops are are are more popular these days. The the one thing about the drop that helps a little bit. Is that's, that's where. The cushion is right. So if you have a zero drop shoe with a lot of cushion, you've got a lot of cushion on the front of the shoe too it makes. So the nice thing is on the drop you got a little bit more cushion in the back, but it's it's less weight on the front and it it does, it feels OK to have a three or 4 millimeter drop I think.

Yeah, I don't know those platform you know. The cushion issues. They're quite light, but it is a different feel to go to zero drop, shoot like you can't just expect to adjust right away. You probably need a a couple of weeks, maybe several weeks for your. Calves, for one to get used to having a. Zero drop shoe. But you also go around barefoot like all the time, like you're a barefoot person. I never go barefoot. I always have socks and shoes on it, sometimes even in the summer like I do get used to wearing sandals, but I have to ease into being like without. Rock song because I just don't like the feel. So anyway, some people. Need more stability in their shoes than others, and what I mean by that is. I tend to pronate so my my ankles and I have fairly flat arches, so sometimes if I don't have the stability in my shoe, I start to have issues in my knees and hips. So just consider that what's best for you and a lot of running shoes running stores. Running shoe stores? They'll evaluate your running stride. And they'll help you see if you pronate or don't pronate or what you need, but that's something to consider too, and that's why I moved away from Ultras because I tried ultras in between Hokas and Tapas and ultras at that time, didn't have much ankle support and they just didn't feel like the shoe itself. Kept you. Like tight in it. You know what I mean? Maybe tights the wrong word, but I feel like you want it snug enough around your mid foot so that your foot itself is not sliding down to the front of your shoe and not, you know, so that you don't feel your big toes or any of your. Toes at the front of your shoe.

Yeah, the and I, I mean I I used ultras for a long time and I really like them. So that you you this is being nitpicky, it's not a bad shoot. It's just these are the things that I didn't. I didn't. It was 95%. It didn't get me to. 100% so and and one of our other teammates. Said the same thing. Basically, when you're walking on uneven terrain, let's say you're walking, you're following a stream or a a large reentrant or a Canyon, the ground is maybe at a 30 degree angle and you're walking along the top, right. So the the, the. The heel support or the ability for your your foot not to slide around inside the. Like the the Ultra Lone peak, specifically, at least the older models like your heel, the the shoe would kind of slide over to the side of your foot, so you're you're almost like walking on the side of the shoe and and that that can really mess up your feet if you do it for a long time. So a shoe that has. A A heel box? That's like a little bit. More form fitting so that. It it it, it stays where you're. Your foot stays stays put in it. Even when you're walking on wonky terrain, that's one of the only reasons I moved away.

From altars? Yeah, I think that's one of the most taxing things when you're trekking in adventure. Racing is when you're walking off camber for a long time, even a well fitting supportive shoe. Your body is having to use micro muscles in your ankles and your. Lower legs that you might not be used to using. Hopefully the shoes help I'm sure, but yeah, that is a challenging thing.

One other thing about the drops. I just wanted to jump in because we. We touched on. That you know the. The shoe starts off 0 drop when. Buy it, but as the cushion wears out, it's going to wear out more in your heel because that's where the strike is occurring. That's where the load is being there.

Well, you shouldn't be heel striking all the time.

And so now. All of a sudden you could.

Midfoot is best.

Either way. Midfoot's best I totally agree. But what I felt when I after I've worn my ultras for a period of time, I almost felt like the heel is lower than my toes.

OK. That makes sense.

Like the cushion, the cushion wears out more on your heel than your toes, so all of a sudden I feel like weird. I can feel the ground on my heel. I still feel some cushion on my. Front so another reason.

That's when you know you need a new pair.

You need a new for your shoes with.

The cushion wore out, yeah.

Oh, that's what stinks about. These cushion shoes, I feel like I'm replacing them all the time and I don't necessarily think it's because it's a bad shoe. It's just we're using them a lot and they're cushioned the cushions going to wear out.

But one other difference between us. Before we reveal your your courage. You is you use lock laces and not just. I think they're even that brand, but they're like bungee lock laces, not like other types of lock laces and. Why don't you? Why don't you share about that?

One thing is I hate like a lot of stuff I can't stand about regular laces. One is. When you're bushwhacking, you're I, no matter what I do, it seems like I always have to tie my shoes and untie me. You know, it's just I'm constantly retying my shoes, which is annoying. They get hung up on stuff, and then the other thing is like and unless. You use Gators? With some especially. They have the ability to hook Gators on there. I think Taco has them as well.

So if you're using Gators, then yeah, you don't get as much debris, rocks and sand and crap into your shoes. But even with Gators a lot of times, sand and stuff gets through the mesh in the front of the shoe or like you do a water crossing and you'll get some sand and grit in your shoe. I want to be able to get my shoe. Off real quick and knock the rock out, put the shoe back on. And and so. So that and the bungee cords you can. You can tighten them up. So let's say you're walking downhill, you know, and slide forward. You can tighten. Them up really good. Or you can loosen them up. Let's say you're on a paddle section. I want to be able to let my feet kind of dry out and air and and just not. I want to be able get them off and on real quick. I can loosen them up really fast, but they never get untied, they never break. I can get them off and on quick. They're not for everybody, but I've just. I've I've tried everything and this is what I'm trying now and. I really like it.

Yeah, they're not for me. I they're just too elasticity. Like, I just feel like I'm sliding forward in my shoe mostly. And then I don't realize that I needed to tighten the lock laces until. I've already slid. Forward and I'm halfway down the hill and it's just another nuisance to me, but. Also, I did learn from Ritter how to tie a shoe that does not come untied, so that's working pretty well. So, UM. I can't really explain it. This is just audio right now.

Yeah, we have to do a YouTube or something.

But yeah, sometimes though I wear Gators just so that my shoes don't come untied. So I understand your frustration there, but the the bungee cord type of laces I just I can't get behind that.

I do me. Let's see what else? The one thing it is nice if you can, if if the insoles come out of your shoes, cause a couple things. Like if you cross the river and you you you could basically take off your socks and take out the insoles, walk across the river in your shoes and then kind of bang the water out of the shoes and. Put back in your your insoles and socks and and basically you're. Way drier than you would if you just bounce. Bounce through the water now. Again, she's dry fast, right? So in a short race, don't worry. About that. But it'll.

Or if they don't, you need to.

Get a new pair.

Because they do need to be draining any. Pair like you. You need a well draining shoe and any shoe that says it's waterproof. You probably want to second guess that and consider what happens when the water actually gets in there, because usually it'll trap the water in there and that's just going to lead to blisters.

And I I got a good. Good story to share on that one in Ecuador. Which is what a four day race. I used Ultra Lone peaks, but the ones that were designed for rain, snow and mud or something like that and I was thinking OK, maybe maybe that will keep keep the water out, keep my feet a little little warmer or whatever, but sure enough they did hold water. And the other thing is that that outer casing on the shoe is a little bit thicker than normal. And shoes and after three days of walking or whatever it was digging into the side of my like, where your toes been was digging into the side.

Yeah, at. The top of your foot.

And so I I quit wearing those I. Mean I could wear them today. Just to go for a trail run and wear them out that way, but I will never use them again in an expedition.

You didn't get blisters. Though that's interesting.

I did not get blisters. It was. Just it was just. Uncomfortable it. It wasn't again, isn't. What I'm looking for perfection. I'm looking for 100% I when I go into a seven day race I want my gear dialed and so the minute that those shoes started eating into the side of my foot, I was like I'm never wearing these things again.

And I've heard of people, though, even drilling small holes in the bottoms of their shoe to let it drain better. I wonder if you could do that with those if I don't know, they're dead to you.

They're dead to me. I'll wear them trailing. I'll wear them out. I'm not going. To throw them away, but OK. Couple of other things like we just said about your your shoes, a couple of things to consider when you're replacing them. Obviously the tread wear is probably where you're. Going to see you know where where you. Need to replace them. Look at the. Treads if you're using. Job or some other type of app to track your your training you could. So pick a number you know after. Every 300 miles I'm going to change amount. I mean, even Strava will recommend. You change your shoes if you're tracking which shoes you're wearing on which. Runs if the cushion starts wearing out. That's another thing. And what I what I like to do. I always kind of have a couple sets of shoes because I'm, I've. I've got my old ones and I got the new ones that I'm breaking in. When you get the. New ones. Compare your new cushion to the old cushion. Just put 1 foot one shoe in on the left foot and the the old shoe on the right foot and see the difference. And then if the cushion. Is wearing out. It's probably gonna start doing damage to your. Your your body physique, so go ahead and replace them even if the tread looks fine. And of course the outside some shoes are just flimsier. So as you're bushwhacking, you'll tear the mesh and stuff on the outside. So so just basically, you know also the inside. I'm sorry, the merrills it used to be the. The the the the insert that. You're putting your foot. One, the shoe would be perfect and. The insert would have gotten chewed up to where I needed to replace them. Because of the insert so. Either way, don't don't be. Cheap on your shoes, especially in expeditions. Have multiple sets. Make sure they're the same brand and that they're broken a little bit and all of that. And that way, if you need to switch out shoes during the race, you're not going from a brand new set to a really old set. That each sets about the right right amount.

Well, some people think it's a great idea to use your lousiest shoes on a race because you're going to tear them up. You are going to get muddy. You're going to they're. Going to be. You're going to wear. Put so much wear on a shoe during a race. But that's more of the reason to to wear new shoes to, you know, protect your your joints and your thing. So I don't know, I guess maybe a short enough race you could go in with your.

I've heard some people say they will use different types of shoes, so it's. A different using different muscles or something different? I don't know my my preference is. Multi multi sets of. The exact same shoe all generally similar wear and tear like.

Yeah, and spoiler alert for the bike pedal question. I wear one shoe all the time. It's the shoe. It's the shoe for me.

That's it. So what is the shoe for?

Is that are we there yet?

I think we're there.

OK, I think. We're OK. So this is a little bit of a weird. Story my dad was. Going to have to get surgery on his. Oh, because he was wearing typical attractive pointy shoes, and he's like you where he wear. Shoes in the house. Like he didn't take his shoes off till he goes into bed.

It's crazy. Like I don't understand. It to the point where his toes were. Were basically crushed on themselves. Going to have to get surgery.

Dad, you should wear ultras like they they, they have a wide toe box and all that. And sure enough, he bought a pair of ultras. I think these were The Walking shoes ultra. He didn't. He didn't have to get a surgery. It, like, literally, it allowed his foot to expand. He loved him until he started seeing that price tag, which a lot of times it's 140. They are not cheap. Almost any quality trail running shoe is not cheap.

Because they're not cheap.

Yeah, the topo shoes, the, it's the ultra venture. Two that I'm using right now, I believe and it's 100. And 50 bucks, 150.

Bucks and we were just at REI yesterday.

The new loan. Peaks There, there's another one with a little bit more cushion. I was like, oh, I'll consider those because I heard that the new loan peaks have solved some of the problems I didn't like.

They're 160 bucks.

I was like hell no.

Any extra little feature 10. More dollars. Ten more dollars.

Ten more dollars.

And then Neil, I'm.

Saying we should have multiple pairs of. Shoes all about.

The same. So you're.

Gonna go buy 3 pairs of thick.

No way, not at a.

160 OK, so my dad is. Like the frugality guy on the planet.

Go figure. So he's like screw ultra. I'm gonna find a solution. So he goes on Amazon and find some. I call him. Butter cookies. They're basically no name. Little Chinese shoes. Or something. But basically he, he, he. Shows me this shoe, it's. Called Bronx BRONAX, right. They're on Amazon. He shows me this shoe. And I'm just like, no way like the inserts don't come out, it's. Got. It's got to drop. And and da da, da.

It's a short, small drop.

But then I. It's a small drive. It's not a lot like. I went out warm this way different. Than the than. The ultras, but now I'm used to it. I I totally got over it but but. These things I think they're like $40.45 bucks, and I'm talking prime shipping. So I'm thinking, OK, I'm doing these expeditions I need. Multiple pairs of. Shoes 40 and 150. Big difference. Right, so I was.

Like, OK, but it's totally modeled after Ultra.

It's it's a, it's a.

A total knockoff?

Yeah, it's a total knock.

It's like coach bag knockoffs. It's like it looks a lot like the real deal. And all of the same. Components are. It's the components are similar enough.

It's very similar. OK, so so I I I decided I'm going to Amazon to buy these butter cookies. I'm not going to tell anybody. I'm actually embarrassed. I show up to a. Race I got. These shoes on, but I. Actually warm in an orienteering race.

You've never been embarrassed for how?

So either way, so I wear these.

Stupid brown axes. And I I did. I used them for an orienteering meat. 1st, I'm not going to jeopardize a 24. Hour adventure race. With some butter cookies. And I'm like, whoa, these actually work pretty well and they were comfortable and they, I I liked them. Better than the ultras because I don't. Yeah, and also. I think I started training in them and training in them. Then the first expedition. That I'd used them in was the C. 2C which we had. A monster Trek leg and.

I was like, here's where. These shoot. I know they're fall apart and my dad was wrong and I need to go back to buying the ultras and they did perfect. I'm telling you these I. Had zero shoe problems. Foot problems. Anything they held up the treads holding up the insides holding up. It gives me the ankle stability I want. And they're like 45.

The tread is a little less than the Vibram on the ultra.

Yeah, it is less laggy which.

Or maybe the vibrant just makes it sticky?

So yeah, so if you think like orienteering, you.

Almost want like soccer. Cleats to get up the hills, yeah. The the treads are not, I wouldn't call. Them road running treads, but they're they're kind. Of in between. Like ultra? You know the the lugs. Over to a total St. It's right in the middle. So yeah, maybe. It could be more luggy, but I I will for $40. I will. I'm sorry to save 100. And $10 per pair. Of shoes. I'll give up a little.

Look, so I'm. I'm usually a follower. I I follow tips lead and I tried them. But like no, I sent them back.

I remember I. But to be fair, I don't any longer like ultras, they're not the right shoe for my foot. I think so. I think it's specifically if you do. Love ultras? You should give them a try.

What's in the news? Yeah.

40 bucks is cheap enough to.

You mean the Bronx, the Bronx?

The burn maxes. Try the burnap if.

And they come in black and grey.

You like ultras?

They don't even look terrible. They don't come in like.

Some fancy silly on green or. Something like that.

Yeah, that's what.

Ultra does like I want that color to go. That's not available. You gotta get the ugly ones that. Are like red. And Gray like. Red and orange and crap. All I want is like. A Gray shoe or a. Black shoe like I don't want. I don't want white soles that get dirt. I'm telling you. I I I'm impressed by this company. I'm impressed with their product for now.

I could be wrong, you know.

And if Broadnax is listening? You could be our sponsor.

You could be our new sponsor. Yes, I did just use them in the I used. Them in Ozarks had. 0 problems with my feet and we did a lot of. Up and down. Screen elevation?

No problem. I've not even. Worn out a set, yet I I.

We did 37,000 feet of elevation in Ozarks. And your brown axes did.

I had 0 foot problem 0.

Well, I guess that was on the bike as well. Did you wear them on the bike?

I did wear them on the bike. I wore them the entire race. I never switched shoes.

Alright, so that I'll leave this into our next question.

I'm sorry. I mean, I'm sorry. I I I switch I I switched between different brown axes but I never switched. I never used bike shoes or anything, yeah. OK, I think that's it. Yeah, I think I. Think we we beat. Shoes today is that it?

OK. On to the next question.

Our next question, this question is from Megan Moore from Vermont and thanks for sending the questions. It is chip talk me through your commitment to flat pedals, no clip INS. Are you using power grips? As a former triathlete, Rd. Decker, I've always used clips, but I'm still working on my technical mountain biking proficiency and being clipped in makes me ride scared. Same with very, very steep hills. When I am dirt tired and there is the risk. Of needing to stop. So what do you think?

So like with everything, there is no right answer. This is going to. Be a lot. Of personal preference in every single adventure racer.

Everything depends.

We'll give you a different different things. So Andrew and I do do different things. So that's good. You'll get two different perspectives. OK, so there's. Really, three different things. We're talking about riding flats. Just basically shoes on petals riding with power grips, which is a strap. That goes across. A flat pedal that allows you basically. Have a little bit more. You're kind of secured into the pedal a little bit more where you could push forward and you can. Pull up but. It you can get out of them very quickly, but you can also wear typical. Running shoes with the power grips and then clipless petals, which is the weirdest thing ever. That the petals. That are actually clip in are called clipless. So I guess for the sake of this podcast, we maybe we'll. Just call like clipping.

In or when you're clip, these are.

The shoes that that have a mechanical spring metal thing that connects you to the pedal. And the only way? Your foot's coming off that pedal is if you twist your ankle in the correct direction at the correct force, and then you can. Get out of. Them so they're very popular in Rd. They are popular in some mountain biking and then the. The but again. It's going to be a lot of personal profit. The more technical the biking gets, it becomes a lot more preference. OK, so let's let's start off with the why compared to just riding flats, most people would say either the power grips or clipping in is going to give you additional power. And let you do different muscle groups. For example, you can pull up, push forward, pull back, so you can basically. Put force on your petals in all directions so you're using all the different muscles in your legs. This works for me, especially when climbing. I love having the clipping in so that I can. I can consciously think I need to. Pull up real. Hard to help me get up this. Uhm, but the uh, I guess some of the downsides of it is if you take a spill, you are physically connected to your bike and unless you are skilled, if you have it set up correctly cleaned and oiled and. You know what? You're. Doing you end up on the ground like Andrea upside down with the bike still. Connected to her. The it's just.

A long time ago I haven't done that for.

It's a long time ago.

A long, long time.

It was funny though, like literally, she's. Laying on her back and. The bike is upright and her. Feet are still in the pedals.

Not sure if it was. Funny. Haha.

Well, it's funny. After you got up, not into. So so that's the. That that, that's kind of the discussion now. One other thing is if you clip in, you need a different pair of shoes than your normal running shoes, right? So during adventure races, which this is specifically, we're going to talk about. Traces you would need to. Have a different set of shoes at your TA bin. And then you need to decide if if you there might be a trekking section or an orienteering course midway during this bike section, you're going to have to carry a second set of shoes with you and switch out before you do the trek section, because most running. I'm sorry, most biking shoes you do not want to spend a lot of time on an orienteering. Course for five hours, right?

So I think though what people may. Not understand the difference between us.

Or maybe it's very obvious you already said.

We do different things. Chip has been mountain biking his whole life. It's like. He was born. On a bike. He is. I don't think you've ridden scared like. For a very long time, or if you were riding scared, you are pushing yourself to a certain extreme that is never required in an adventure race, and you're just you're very good, you're very proficient, you've been. You've got that 10,000 hours. I, on the other hand, didn't start to mountain bike until I was 40, so it's actually already been 10 years now, but I love it, but I do still have recent memories of being scared, riding and even sometimes now certain situations. I'll have a little bit of fear and so. So I have written both without clips and with power grips and with flats and I got really used to using a clip and that made me feel more comfortable and I started to be able to get out of them with no problem. It started to become second nature. So there's like a a hump to get over if you're using. If you're being clipped in, you've got to really practice a lot getting out of the. Clips and another thing some people don't always know about with UM clips is you can get a multidirectional clip from Shimano. It looks really similar to their regular clips, but it's it allows you to get out of it a little bit easier, so I used those. A lot. And also if you oil the spring and the pedal, you're going to be able to get out easier. You can also make the adjustment of getting out, but of course you don't want to get out too easy so that when you're, you know going over a bump, then all of a sudden you're you're coming out of the pedal and you don't want to be. But anyway. That I do think there is a good place for that in racing. If it's a race that you know you're not going to be doing much, hike a bike or you're not going to be doing a lot of challenging single track and and the checkpoints themselves are right. On the route. But how are you going?

Before the race. You usually don't so. Since I did get used to. Riding with clips in, I'd like that feeling of being connected to the pedal, so going without clips at all, I feel the most uncomfortable. I feel like it's a free for all kind of. I don't know why, but my foot doesn't. Naturally, go to where I think. It should like the. Power grips that I use now, they kind of make it so you're putting your foot on the same place where you want it to be each. Time and there's also a difference between regular straps and power grips, so power grips kind of angle over the pedal, whereas some straps are just a flap across that I think are much harder to get out of. So the power grips mimic the motion of getting out of a clipped pedal. And they still take some getting used to, but I love it so that when I'm going on a downhill, I feel like I'm not going to fly out of the pedals when I hit a rock or something because I've got that strap there and I don't actually use it even that tight. But depending on your size of your shoe, that also becomes an issue for some people too. I think because it's pretty easy for me to get my feet in there. I have a pretty small foot and I don't have those issues, but I think it makes it easier for me to try harder things. Having the power grip as opposed to the flat. And aside from the additional power you get from being able to lift up, but that's I love the power grips now, and it took me a while to come around to that.

If you were going through, let's say, a rock garden and you didn't want to be in the power grips, you could flip them over and ride the opposite side of. The pedal, just like a standard bike.

And that's when you do use bike shoes. That's the type of pedal you use. Also, is a flipped.

Let's back up. OK. So on the power grips, how long did it take you to? Because the the power grip, the, the grip itself weighs so right. So the pedals always upside down. How long did it take you to get the hang of like flipping your pedal? To get your toe in the grip.

I don't even know it. What? Maybe. A few weeks of writing and I'd say 3 rides a week or something.

So now you can get in, get in them pretty quick.

So what's that?

Like when you stop the bike and get back on.

Yeah, to me, I don't even really think about it.

And then also if you don't get. In right away. You can just either smash the, smash the grip down, or at. The other side of the pedal is right there for. You too, so.

And the grips are adjustable, right? So if you had smaller feet or bigger feet, you could you can make them to the to your the tightness that you want or the position of your? Foot on the pedal you can adjust.

And the pedal itself has pretty. Teeth, you know, so like when your foot is. On it your. Your foot's not going to slide around like there were petals that we used before that was clipped on one side and flat on. The other side. But the flat side didn't have any grip at all. Those were terrible. They were. I mean, not terrible. They they served a purpose. In fact, they served a purpose in Belize. When UM, my clip fell off of my shoe, my cleat fell off and we didn't have a replacement. And so we should mention if. You are going to. Use clipped petals that the cleat on your shoe. Make sure you have an extra screw or even. An extra cleat. For your team, just in case and use lock tight lock tight. We used on the screws out for like when you're screwing it in. It really helped.

Yeah, if you buy. Shoes that are going to clip into the petals. The shoes are designed to work with different brands. So you really have to pick, you know, which are you going to do Shimano or there's the other egg beaters? I can't remember the name of. The brand. So you're going to have to assemble the shoe and you buy it. And so that's what she's saying with the with the loctite, when you assemble it, the little screws that go in, make sure you put Loctite on there that way. Once you get your once you get it dialed in and you got it set up the correct way. It it didn't come in undone. And most situations. Another thing, it would be nice if you have a four person team in an expedition. Just try to get everybody wearing the if everybody's going to clip in, have everybody use the same type of clip so you could have just one extra set. For the entire team, affinity breaks. OK, so now let's go back over to the petals. So the one big mistake is to ride. Choose to clip in and then the pedal is identical on both sides, and the only thing there is the the the apparatus to clip. But you basically there. There is no flat pedal. So if if you you it's. Really uncomfortable to ride the. The bike with normal running shoes. You have to have. The clip and. So the egg beaters are a good example of that, like. You you just can't comfortably ride the bike. Like so, I'm a fan of, like, day-to-day biking. I'm always wearing bike shoes that I clipped in. I I like it better. I use all the muscle groups in the legs. The only reason I don't do it in race is because like what you said you you are. You're always like. Hiking a bike or you going uphill. Or you going through the woods or you got sand? There's always some dumb reason why I wish I had my running shoes on during. The bike leg so I bought petals again. I got them on Amazon. They're not expensive. Basically on one side it's got the clip in Shimano style clip. And on the other side, it's a large flat pedal with like spikes on it. It's like little little screws sticking up. So running shoes, they just really stick to it really, really well. And the reason I got a wide base one is because when I was riding the other petals that we had, I think they were Shimano. The pedal itself on the flat side was pretty thin. So my pinky toe and my ring finger toe were kind of that part of my shoe is kind of. Hanging off so. I got these big shoes with the big wide toe box and I felt my my toes would getting them on the side. I think they're kind of hanging off and it just didn't feel right. And they also they they didn't have a lot of grip. So when I got these these ones on. Amazon again these. These are these. They're sharp, like you don't want to. Hit to hit your shin with them. They are going to cause blood, but basically I when I'm on them my my feet don't slide around and so I've honestly, I've never tried the power. Grips but also. I'm a strong biker and normally I'm I'm not in the back, I'm not struggling and so I just figured simple is better. It's less weight, it's less thing I don't. I can just jump on the bike and go. I don't have to monkey with it to get my foot in. And also I wear size 13. So when I did try to put my foot into somebody else's bike with it like I, I felt like my foot. Couldn't push in enough to get. And to get my foot on the pedal. I wanted I could get my toe into the power grid, but I. Didn't get the the whole shoe in and so. I just decided you know what what I'm doing. Is working and. I don't have a problem, so why? Why second guess the solution?

Yeah, you are always.

The fastest biker, despite not clipping in despite not using power grips so you know assess your. Need to. But it's kind of cracking me up that you said that in training you clip in. But in races you don't and. We've said before that we train like we fight.

Like to me, I think.

It is crazy to do something on a day-to-day basis that you're. Not going to. Be doing very racist. Like if I did that, my brain would just be a little bit scrambled like. I've mountain biking isn't as natural to me as to you. It's become a lot more natural to me, but I don't think switching back and forth between things and setups is a good idea for.

I mean, you're talking to somebody who has like. Have bikes, so can do.

A hard tail. I can do a.

That's what my point kind of is.

Full suspension. I can do a large travel full suspension. Or a short travel full. I got a. Wide hard tail.

I got my race hard tail.

Don't take chips advice.

So they don't take care of myself.

Take my advice. Is what I'm. Saying but also.

Worth mentioning that when we answered the previous question. You contradicted yourself. Like right away, you said something in the beginning. Like, well, don't go cheap on shoes.

Don't go cheap on. Your shoes.

But then you buy $40 shoes.

So let me explain that. OK, I.

I don't know. Are we evolving as?

We create this or.

No, no, I mean that. That did sound. Like a little bit of an oxymoron, right? Don't don't go cheap on your shoes because.

So what are you going?

It's really important. And then I turn. Around and say I go cheap on my shoes. This is what I mean if you pay. 100 and. $60.00 for a pair of shoes. You don't want to. Stop using them because the cushions a little worn out or the treads are a little worn out, or Estrada tells you that you need a new set of shoes cause you paid $160. You're going to keep wearing them past the point of viability, causing damage to your foot, so that's what I meant by don't go cheap.

Ohh, you shouldn't do that you.

On the shoes shouldn't.

Ask the viability. No matter how much they.

No matter how much they cost.

So the nice thing.

Is that these bonnets is. 40 bucks, like the minute the. Shoe wears out. I can just like I can just turn them in and get another because they're only $40. It's no big deal.

So I'm not wearing them. Like I used to do the altars, I'd wear the altars until I my foot's touching. The ground cause. I wore through the whole thing.

Well, the ultimate beauty then actually both of our setups is. We can use the same shoes the. Whole race along, correct. I use power. Grips you use flaps. We use the same shoes the whole race, so we don't have to rely on taking one. Versus the other, and remembering to have a certain pair at a certain time for a certain leg. So I love that and also just the unpredictability of racing. You never know how much you're going to be hiking your bike. You never know if you're going to have. A mechanical and. Then be hiking for a lot longer than.

Yes or yeah, right.

Because remember in in Paraguay. Louis's bike. He had bike shoes and clips so he couldn't run and walk. Meanwhile, I was wearing running shoes, so I was able to literally run all the uphills. I was jogging and then on the downhills he would tow me. And we did that. For 15 hours and if I had been in. Running shoes. My feet would have been destroyed.

After that, and he couldn't also go. He couldn't you? Guys couldn't interchange bikes either because you would have had to switch pedals for bikes, but you had to.

Which we did, we. Switched pedals? Yeah, because. Remember I had to get on his. I couldn't ride his bike with my running shoes cause he had the dumb pedals with the only clip. You can't ride them flat footed, so we did switch pedals in that race so that. I could I. Could use his bike, which was not. Functioning, I could coast. The downhills and then run the up hills. And then he could use my bike and clip in.

But point being made you never know when you're really going to have to be taking your bike for a walk instead of riding your bike.

Thing on the on the clips, a lot of times and this happens all the time. I think it's like once a race I see this. Somebody comes up to a. They can't get out of their. Clips and they. Fall over and they're laying on the ground, they. Feel like a total *******. It happens to everybody. Specially Rd. bikers. They always come up to. A stop sign. They they. Boot may fall over in traffic.

I've never seen that.

It's hilarious. I've seen it.

I don't think that's funny.

It's it's. It's funny when they're OK and they. Get up. It's. So embarrassing because every. He's looking at you. But either way. If you're gonna ride cliffs meaning clipping into the bike, and I love riding clips. Almost every time that I clean the bike and I make sure that the clips are cleaned off right. So however you normally clean your bike, you don't want mud and rust and crap on the spring mechanism on the pedal, right?

So I I break all the rules. I use a very low pressure power washer and I and I spray the pedals. On the clips and that that way, they're perfectly clean. And then I take garage door Lube, which is a it's like a spray, kind of like WD40, but it's dry, right? So after you spray the clips. It it dries so it doesn't attract a lot of mud. Now all it it. You know, keep it away from your brake pads, right? Cause you're spraying. So you use like a paper towel behind the thing, but either way, almost every other time I ride I am going to spray off those clips to make sure that I can get in and out of them very consistently. Because if you don't clean them. It gets harder and harder and harder to get out because they're getting rusted and there's crap in them and all of that. So if you're gonna ride. Clips keep them clean. The other thing is keep. Them adjusted. There's a little screw. On there, when you first get started. Use those Shimano SH 56 multidirectional release cleats that Andrea told you about. You can probably get them at REI or Amazon. Start off with those and then once you're comfortable with those, you can go back to the regular ones, but then also the spring keep keep the spring kind of weak. When you're first. Getting used to it, so it doesn't. Take much to. Get out of the pedals. Problem with that is you can fall out of the pedals like you're trusting it, and that you'll kind of bounce out on a hard bump, but either way, you want to be able to get out quick until you've been riding, say, two or three months. And you're getting really used to being able to twist your ankle and get out. And then you can start tightening. Up that little set screw. To where you feel the correct amount of connection to the bike and the correct amount of force to get out. But just please keep them clean. The one thing almost. Everybody that falls over on their bike, I look at their, their their clips and they're rusted and dirty.

They get dirty during the leg, like if you're in. Buttery mud. That stuff is so hard to get off and anyway, but the the final point. What which race would you ever ride clipped in? Is there? Like I think some people would think. Oh, with the C2C would be perfect for that because it's a basically flat race and you're going to be on some roads and.

I actually think that's not a good race to use bike shoes either. Like there's a lot of sand, there's more hike bike than you would think because of that sand. So what? What race can you think of that you would do using? Being clipped in. So let's.

Go back again. I ride bike shoes every day, every every training day. I've always riding. Bike shoes.

Please answer the question.

I I could ride every race we've done. I could ride my bike shoes and do OK. I would be fine like CC where it wouldn't have been fine is like in Paraguay where I'm actually jogging for a really long period of time. Like you don't want to be an ultra runner and. Your bike shoes, no matter how good the bike shoes. So it or the other thing that I don't like about the bike shoes like for example in Africa, we were pushing up hills and so. Bike shoes are. More rigid on the front. And so your toes can't bend as you're. Pushing something hard. Up the hill. And so I I really like the flexibility of the running shoes. The tow box is wider. Especially if it's going to be cold, my toe box and my running shoes, my toes are not going to get as cold because even though I got the best bike shoes I could find with the widest toe box, my toes are still compressed a little bit and they don't make a size 14 so. I am so. That's the only reason I would be comfortable wearing the clip in shoes, but I am so comfortable with the running shoes on the flats. I just I I don't want to take the risk of having to deal with that. Second piece of gear.

So bottom line is there.

Because the I don't think no.

Is there is not a. Race that we wouldn't be doing what we're doing now.

I just did the. Epic, and it didn't even cross my. Mind that that is so. Even in a shorter race it. Didn't cross my mind, but in in any. Addition. There's so many. Variables I always want to be able to get off. The bike and run. And and or or your bike breaks. I want to go to get your bike and I run because I'm kind of the Sherpa sometimes on the team. I just. I want that flexibility, so I don't think I'll ever use clip and shoes in an expedition.

And I think the power grips are the next alternative.

That would be the thing. If I'm going to change something. I would go to power. Grips correct. Yeah, I would. Not go to clips.

All right. So that's our answer.

So that's our answer. Let me see if. There's any other thing on here? OK. I think we're good. We beat. That one today. Good, thanks so. Much for the question that was, I'm. Sure, there's a lot of. Racers and teams out there that that are. Are interested in all of this. We hope you enjoyed this podcast. Please take a moment to leave a rating and.

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